Moss Motors, Ltd

Oh, by the by,

When removing the engine, I unbolted the right side mount from the chassis and on the left; I unbolted the engine from the mount. It slid right out without any interference from the steering shaft.

I'm hoping that it will go back in just as easily.  I'll let you guys know.

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

Hey davey, any news yet?

Cheers 

Ed

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I want my MGB

Thanks for asking. I was afraid to call but your post prompted me!

The head is off and there is intrusion between cylinders 2 & 3. Either the head or block will need machining, he hasn't determined which one yet, but he has the tools and experience to do anything needed to turn back the hands of time! By Friday he will have investigated the innerds to find the low oil pressure problem. I do have confidence in him.

Originally he told me 2 to 3 weeks and it seems like he's on schedule. I've used this time to finish the restoration of my front-end bushings and bearings. I did the left side over the summer but was too eager to get it on the road to finish the job, so I'm doing the right side now.

Thanks for asking and thereby kicking my butt to get on the phone!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

Well....the news is in...

"The rod journals are cooked as well as the #2 bearing, it's down to copper. The cam bearings also need replacement, and the head is warped."

Mr. Mechanic will be putting in new cam, main and 10 over rod bearings. He'll also resurface the head. He's already opened up the valve guides to the proper dimension (the valves actually move up and down now). What I was sure was a bent valve was actually just stuck! Also, as long as he's got it apart, he'll be installing a new timing chain and sprockets.

All in all, including new gaskets all around, the parts are $255. I'm having them drop shipped and according to Moss, they'll be there by Wednesday. Mr. Mechanic tells me it will be about 1 day to put everything back together, so I should be picking up my engine by this Friday (fingers crossed). 

Now, here's the question. When I rebuilt this with my buddy, we used plastiguage on the new bearings and found them to be fine. Is the fact that they now require 10 over bearings due to the low oil pressure that I ran with for 2000 miles; and was that low pressure caused by the cam bearings that I did not replace?

Another question...I had the head done by a pro and he said that it did not need resurfacing at the time. Why does it need resurfacing now? What caused it to warp? The temperature was always within normal operating parameters (even with a pinhole leak in the radiator at one point)?

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

davey,

You say that the engine NOW requires 10 over (actually under, think about it) bearings. What was in it before? The ONLY way to put in alternate size bearings is if the crankshaft has been ground to accept the new size. To me, it seems that the correct way to go here would be to grind and polish all the journals (rod and main) to the nearest acceptable size. If the rod journals are "cooked", the connecting rods themselves should be rebuilt. (checked/corrected for alignment and sized at the big end. It goes without saying that the cam bearings would be replaced if the block was hot tanked to clean out the crap from the wasted bearings. Hot tanking eats the cam bearings up. This would be a good time to have all the internal moving parts balanced as well. This promotes longevity. The head is another matter.

It's no real wonder that the head is warped. It was probably warped before, and not properly addressed, just like the valve guides. It is not likely anything you did warped it.

I doubt that the cam bearings you didn't replace caused the other destruction in the engine, but not knowing the exact sequence of events and details of the entire adventure makes speculation difficult. The main thing is to do everything right THIS TIME. It sounds like you are off to a good start. Good luck, man.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

It is certainly consoling to hear YOU say that I'm off to a good start, but a reminder...I am not the one doing this work!

I tend to agree with your assertion that the head was probably warped before any work was performed and that the other "pro" just didn't address it. Call it E.S.P. but that's the feeling I got originally when he said it didn't need machining.

I understand that the crankshaft may also be in peril since the rod bearings are toast, but 2 points come to mind:

1.  Wouldn't any damage be incurred by the softer bearings rather than the shaft? 

2. Is it unreasonable for an average guy like me to expect the pro I hire to know and check for this stuff?  I know that a consumer should be informed, but if it wasn't for this forum and input from guys like you, there's no way that I would even know to ask that question! This is why I hired a pro! I'd have done it myself again if I wanted another hack job! I guess the REAL question is what percentage of "professional" engine rebuilders are there out there that can actually be trusted to do the job right?

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

If the crankshaft was ground with the rods at .010" and the mains were left standard that would explain it, but crankshafts are usually ground so that both mains and rods "match" If one is done at ten or twenty, so is the other. Of course, cam bearings only come in one size. If they are really trashed, and the cam is also. then both are replaced. But if the block has been tanked, the cam bearings HAVE to be done. Make sense now?

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

I actually edited the post to which you replied (damn you're quick!).

Your explanation does now make sense.

My most important question however is the second one about engine rebuilders. What is your candid opinion (and yes I am aware the you're sometimes pessimistic). 

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

davey,

1. Once trash starts circulating through a system the bearings just become a backing against which the material begins to scarify the crankshaft journals. The crankshaft can take a little of this abuse, but the soft bearing material makes a nice home for the abrasive junk to stick to, and pretty soon the dirty work is done.

2. No, it is not at all unreasonable for you to expect a professional to know and check EVERYTHING. That's his job, fer cryin out loud. I have to be honest here. When I hear a low price I start to worry. Doing all this stuff right takes a lot of time in a shop where things are maintained and the equipment is up to date. All this spells overhead. That overhead has to be paid. 

2a. I can't begin to guess what percentage of engine builders do the job well. It's a dying art. Some are desparate. Think of it this way, though. What percentage of practicing professionals in ANY field are really trying these days. It seems like all of them from plumbers to politicians are taking the fast buck or the easy way out. I hate having typed that, but I'm afraid the evidence points that way. Maybe things will change for the better. Maybe I'm just plain wrong. What do you think?

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Agreed...and I mean G-R-E-E-D!

The work ethic of the past is unfortunately a rare commodity however the good news is that it isn't dead yet. In my profession, I am inspired by the positive attitude of some of the young technician whom I train. They find pride in a job well done, unfortunately that's only about 20% of them. Of the remaining techs, 60% are just doing what they are expected to do, while the other 20% are doing as little as possible, just to get by.

Sadly, those empirical statistics are probably faithfully extrapolated to the work world. I guess the bell curve is alive and well in the real world as well as the classroom.

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

A bit more info here....(you'll LOVE this)

I had my buddy talk to the mechanic for a more clear picture:

The #2 rod jourrnal was machined to .010 under...all others were left standard! Also, as stated above, the cam bearings were bad.

Mr. Mechanic will be machining all the other journals (and mains I guess?) for the right fit.  In any event, he's quite confident that this was the problem and that I should be able to pick it up on Friday.

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

That's incredible.. talk about short cuts.

Anyway - it's good to hear that you'll get to the bottom of this, have it properly sorted and back on the road.

Cheers,

Ed

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I want my MGB

Of course this drags down the reputation of all others in a given field. I really get sawed off when I hear about this kind of stuff, and wonder if I want anyone to introduce me me at a party as a mechanic. I'm sure though, that depending on the profession and the audience, most professionals are the butt of everything from jokes to outright derision. Lawyers, building contractors, policemen, doctors, plumbers, PRESIDENTS......... Of course, some do deserve it, but the brushfull of tar tends to be pretty wide.

Life's a beach, just don't quit swimming because of it.......

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Motorbill....Don't get too "sawed off", natural selection is a very real factor!

Most of the "also-rans" will be eliminated from the market no matter what the profession.  This will leave the good and the ugly; the bad will be pumping gas at the 7-11 (no matter what the trade!). The market will thin the herd, and for the record, the guy whom originally did my head was young and starving. I wonder if he's still in business?

I'll keep all updated on developments (as always), because this stuff is real and represents obstacles to avoid for the "newbies" like me.

Be aware that I will be asking for specific, unambiguous (written so that an Electronics instructor may understand), instructions on breaking in this engine and hope to hear from you and others with your suggestions. I know that you've offered this advice to others before and I hope that you'll reprise your comments.

Currently on this forum there is a thread about oils, and which is best for break-in. I have read this thread and it leaves me with more questions than answers. All I know is that you stand behind your rebuilds for two years, and that's good enough for me! What advice do you give to your customers, or do I have to pay for that? I'm really a good guy. My students and family love me. Would you consider a free-be?

In fact what are all of your suggestions on breaking in a newly rebuilt engine? Which oil should be used and for how long? What RPM's should be delivered in a certain time frame? How did YOU successfully break in your engine, what has worked well for you? Maybe we can find some common ground that will give good direction to all!

 

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

I'll be following the break-in / oil subject pretty closely myself. There's only about 150 miles and 1 oil change on my engine (part of me almost wants to keep it that way...) so it's rather relevant.

Cheers, and good luck with the rebuild.

Ed

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I want my MGB