Moss Motors, Ltd

Hi again..

My next question is regarding recommended gasket sealants, assembly lubes, torque lubes etc. for puttng my Sprite engine back together. I could use tips as to where to use hardening vs. non-hardening etc. and application suggestions. Also, should I use Loctite on bearing cap nuts (in addition to loctabs)?

 And as for motor oil, I understand that Castrol no longer has much zddp, so should we be using something like Valvoline VR1?

Thanks again!

-p

P, I've read on this forum that Castrol just re-introduced a formula that includes ZDDP. I'm not sure what the label looks like however. There is a formula for "high mileage engines", but when I read the label it made no mention of ZDDP.

I bought the ZDDP additive from Moss. It's $10 a bottle and mixes with the 4 qrts of oil that your car needs. Another note on oil, according to those much more experienced than I, use 10-40 as your break-in oil (for the first few thousand miles).

Motorbill outlined a step by step recipe for breaking in an engine, it's listed as one of my favorite posts...good reading.

http://www.mossmotors.com/forum/forums/post/12093.aspx

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

Thanks for the info and the link to the excellent post by MotorBill...

-p

-p,

Let's take gasket cements and compounds first. Here are the ones I use to build pretty darned leak free British engines:

1. Permatex 1A Fast drying hard setting cement

2. Permatex 2A Non hardening compound

3. Permatex 3D Aviation style liquid cement (brushable)

4. 3M Super Weatherstrip Adhesive (yellow contact cement)

5. Hylomar (original blue)

You'll perhaps notice the absence from this list of any silicone cement. Silicone cements have only a very limited application in my view. They are good for mating machined metal surfaces wherein no gasket is present. This is nearly unheard of in these old engines. Almost everything has a gasket. There are a few internal parts, such as where oil pumps mate to blocks, where there may be no gasket, but these were not intended to have cement. If the surfaces are less than ideal, a little dab of aviation style cures that. So, where and how do we use each of the above?

1. Permatex hardening. Use this where you don't expect to be removing the part in the future (at least until next rebuild) and there might concievably be some gaps to fill, or the subsequently applied part might not exert nice even pressure. A good example would be between the oil sump gasket and the block. (Not between the gasket and the pan. more in a moment) Also use it in certain applications where three parts with various combinations of paper and cork come together. Certain engines have this situation where a two part sump gasket joins a cork gasket at the seal housing at front and/or rear. Don't be shy with this stuff. One of the leading causes of leakage I've observed over the years, having taken apart a lot of wet engines, is a scarcity of cement application. It's not that expensive, and it won't corrode the inside of the motor! Us it to the point it squishes out and has to be wiped off. Obviously, you don't want to put it where it will block off any passages, but don't be afraid to use the stuff.

2. Permatex non hardening. Use this on the side of the sump gasket that mates to the sump (oil pan) itself. Simply put, use plenty. This cement is oil proof, and will fill the gaps which the sheet metal pan will always have as you torque it down. Before applying it, try to get that pan mating surface as straight and dimple free as possible. I'll sometimes go as far as to slightly "pooch out" the holes where the hold down bolts will go. That is, I'll use a ball pein hammer from the mating side, and a socket which surrounds the hole on the "outside" to set up a punch operation whereby striking the ballpein hammer flat head with a brass hammer will cause the ball to deform the sheet metal outward toward where the bolt head will be against it. Not much force is needed, and if the sump is in really good condition this step isn't truly neccessary. It just helps even out the applied force. Anyway, squeeze on plenty of cement. On an MGB engine, I will likely use most of a 1 ounce tube for this step. The reason I don't use the hardening cement for this step is twofold. One, the extra elasticity and continuing pliability of the non hardening cement will keep it "working" for the life of the engine. It won't shrink away and become brittle. As engine temperatures change, the sheet metal sump will "move around" a bit. The pliability of the stuff will accomodate this. The second reason is more fundamental. What if something goes wrong with your job?, or you begin to wonder if you did indeed torque the rod bolts? (we've all been here) With the non hardening cement, you can carefully remove the pan without destroying the gasket. Hardening would wreck it for sure. Other places you can use non hardening are for cork gasketed cooling system parts and other places where thick paper or cork gaskets are used.

3. Permatex Aviation style. This cement comes in a jar, usually a white plastic one. There is an applicator brush fastened to the underside of the lid. This is my favorite, unsung hero cement, for engine building. It's also great for transmission housings. Use this cement when you will be sticking a thin paper gasket to a machined surface. For instance, the front and rear engine plate gaskets, and the timing cover gasket interface to the front of the engine. Again, don't by shy if the surfaces are not good. I like to apply this cement to both the gasket and the part, give them about two minutes to air dry, and then carefully stick them together. They will "swim" just enough if you're careful to adjust the positioning. As this cement ages, the volatiles evaporate and it gets thick and gooey. That's why it's important to cap it up immediately upon using it. The interesting thing is that as it ages and thickens, it can be used anyway, though with more patience. It also develops better gap filling characteristics, though only to a point.It's pretty good for the side cover, or tappet chest, cover to block joint as well. I sometimes even use it to stick the sump gasket to the block if the sump is particularly well constructed and not likely to gap too badly. It should be remembered that this is an adhesive type cement. It glues things. It's likely that any paper gasket to which it is applied on both sides will tear when it is removed.

4. 3M Super weatherstrip adhesive. This is a rubbery contact cement. It is impervious to oil. I use it to position cork gaskets onto components which will suubsequently be fastened in a position where the gasket may not cooperate while the component is being manipulated and placed. Don't use it on paper gaskets. It tends to go on and sit a bit lumpy. I use it to stick valve cover gaskets to their valve covers, and tappet cover gaskets to their covers. Follow the directions on the tube. You put a thin layer on each surface, then let them air dry for several minutes before sticking them together. Make sure you are carefully placing them exactly where you want them to go. You only get one chance. If you mess up, start over after cleaning the stuff off with laquer thinner or carburetter cleaner. As soon as you have successfully placed a gasket, you need to either put the component in place or, in the case of a valve cover, place it face down on a flat surface with some weight on it for a bit so the cement can settle. To some it may sound weird to use weatherstrip cement on engine components, but I can assure you this trick has been around for a long time and it works great. Note, you only use it to stick the cork gasket to the component, not to them stick the assembly to the engine.

5. Hylomar. This stuff can, if used properly, be magical in its ability to seal, stick, and release when neccessary. I use it almost exclusively on cooling system gaskets, especially the cork thermostat housing ones. I also use it on the face of the valve cover gasket which will contact the engine. What's neat here is that if you've used the weatherstrip adhesive mentioned above, and you're careful, you're likely to be able to pull and place the valve cover for many a valve adjustment without the mess of having to peel out, clean away, and readhere, a new gasket. For the tappet covers, it's a toss-up between Hylomar and non hardening Permatex, or even aviation style. Some of the Hylomar which I've recieved lately is not the same as the original blue formula. Instead of a clear blue, almost gel like appearance it is a cloudy blue. This stuff sticks a bit too hard for my liking, and it can wreck a cork valve cover gasket when you have to pull it off. Tread lightly.

A word about seals. All the gasket cement in the world won't assure a leak free engine if the seals are not doing their job. If the area on the crankshaft damper where the seal rides is grooved out, the seal will not have enough tension to prevent the egress of lubricant. Either find a better (perhaps new?) damper with a good surface, or look for a Speedi-sleeve. Don't forget to lubricate a new seal. Otherwise it will burn before it ever gets a chance to seal.

Understanding which cement to use is a matter of understanding what each cement does, and what the joint you are sealing wants. Use this as a general guide and you'll soon develop a feeling for what works where. There are a couple of other "tricks" to use when assembling an engine, especially installing the head, but time runs short.

We'll get into torque, lubricants for fasteners, loctite, and assembly lube soon. Somebodt remind me tomorrow. I gotta go right now

Cheers.

Bill

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Wow, thanks for the detailed response, MotorBill. I knew you'd come through. The tough part was waiting to get access to the forum all weekend, as the website was down until this (Monday) morning...

 Just a few more points...

What would you use on rubber tappet cover gaskets, if anything? I splurged on the rubber instead of cork, figuring you didn't need to use anything on them.

What about freeze plugs? The machine shop guy recommended Ultra Black silicone, then pound 'em in.....

I can't wait to hear what you have to say about assembly lubes etc......

Can't thank you enough!

-p

 

Motorbill-

Thanks for the in-depth info on cements and how to use them on different specialized automotive components. You just saved me and probably other forum members a whole lot of time and money. Sharing your knowledge in this area is much appreciated.

Mike Mann

Highland, Ca

I've used RTV Silicone in place of gaskets with great sucess. Don't glob it on and be sure that the surfaces are very clean is all. I used Permatex Ultra-copper RTV in place of an exhaust manifold gasket, because I didn't have a gasket, it was a weekend and I couldn't get one. I figured I could put a proper gasket on it later if it leaked, it never leaked. 

 

Dave

 

 

Thanks again for another detailed reply..(and sorry to be asking more questions..)

Do you also use the Lubriplate on the cam lobes? I thought a moly-based lube or maybe Redline assembly lube would be better...?

Something else I need to know... what's the proper technique for installing studs...especially head studs? Should they be lightly oiled? How tight? I've read that you shouldn't "bottom them out." But then, there's a lot of varying opinions I'm trying to sift through..

Thanks again!

-p

 

 

 

-p,

I use the same treatment on the rubber side cover gaskets that I use on the cork ones, although, If they'll stay put while you place them, Aviation style will work fine on both sides too.

The guy in the machine shop may or may not have experience with these engines. Here's what I have found to be bullet proof. After determining that the core plug will indeed fit properly, mix up some J-B Weld epoxy. Smear a thin bead of it where the edges of the plug will sit in the counter bore of the plug recess of the block (or head). Now place the plug into position. (I'm assuming we are talking about domed plugs here) Deform the plug with a ball pein hammer by placing the flat head in the center of the plug and striking the round head with a brass hammer. Don't go too far. Stop a bit before the plug goes flat. This is where it has its greatest tension. Now smear a small fillet of the epoxy all round the edge where the plug meets the block. I've never had a plug thus applied leak. With practice, you can get all set up and install all the plugs on an engine in one "mix" of epoxy. The dish style core plugs (flat across the bottom with a vertical edge) can be installed with epoxy or with aviation style quite successfully.

My problem with silicone in this application is that in my experience it's not as "forever" as you need it to be here. It does deteriorate over time. And while some of the modern silicones are better at resisting oil, I've just had too many engines apart with the stuff swimming around inside them.

Dave has had a good experience using a specific silicone cement INSTEAD of a gasket. In a way, this proves my point. He used it where two machined metal surfaces join. I will assume that if he had a correct gasket during reassembly, he'd have used that. I know I would. By the way, NEVER use silicone cement on a thin paper gasket. This is almost guaranteed to split the gasket, as the silicone is too lubricious.

A word about paper gaskets: They should be carefully held in place dry to see if the are correctly sized. Trying to get a malformed gasket to cooperate while everything is full of cement is not in my top ten list of fun things to do while building an engine. If the gasket is undersize (they usually are), Soak it in hot water for about thirty seconds. If you now let it dry, it will just shrink back undersize again. Put the wet gasket into place with no cement and put all the fasteners through it. If possible, you may even want to bolt up the next component temporarily. Let things dry, then disassemble, glue up, and put together permanently. Sometimes, as the gasket dries out, no matter what you do, the danged thing wants to shrink. No problem. Glue things up and put that sucker together while the gasket is still slightly damp, though not soaking wet. This works fine. The water left in the gasket will eventually evaporate and the cement will take over.

I use Lubriplate #105 engine assembly lube to build engines. Once again, don't be shy. Don't just use it on the bearings. Use it on the face of the block where the bearing cap will contact it. That's right! It will allow the bearing cap to "swim" and "creep" into a non stressd position as you torque it down, and no, it won't hold the two components apart. Use it similarly on the connecting rod caps. Just don't put it between the bearing shells and the saddles/bores in which they sit. I also pack the oil pump with it so that it gets good suction when you first start cranking the engine. Engine oil is not a bad lube to use when torquing down main and rod bearing fasteners. Use some where the nut/bolt head will spin against the component as well. You want the torque load to come from the clamping force, not the friction encountered by the fastener itself. You can also use a moly lube, but this actually loweres significantly the torque figure at which maximum clamping force is achieved. This can get dodgy. Unless you have figures and new fasteners I would not really advise it. Loctite is rarely indicated for bearing fasteners, though on rare occaision I've used it in old, vey weak fastenered, low applied torque sityations. The Spridget is not in this catagory.

My purpose in writing in this forum is to relate what has and has not worked for me over a span of forty-odd years. I want to stress that I don't believe myself to be the ultimate authority on ANYTHING. If someone has had good results with a given method, they should use that method. All I suggest is that you be honest and coldly analytical in reviewing those results. Then, by all means, share with us!

The thing I like best about what I do is that in all the time I've been doing it, I haven't stopped learning. New products and processes keep coming along. And new techniques are continually revealed. Whenever someone shows me a better way I am overjoyed. It means I have learned. And learning is what keeps us young.

Bill

 

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

-p,

Wow, the timing of Qs and As is really wacky right now on the site. I'm sure better heads than mine are working on it though. I'll answer things as I see them, even if the order seems strange...I'm not drunk, honest...

I use Kent cam lube on the lobes, and then pour some more into the crankcase once the assembly is complete. There are other lubes for this specific purpose too. Make sure you use one. The Lubriplate isn't really suited to this. Thanks for asking.

Installing head studs is another subject. It seems as though you're trying to get the whole process out of me, one step atr a time!

Here goes, Get a tap of the correct size and chase the threads in all the holes. Now clean them out thoroughly with compressed air. Clean the threads on the studs as well. If you look at the studs you'll see that where they end and the shaft of the stud starts there is a slight chamfer. You want this to seat in the entrance to the hole in the block. If the stud bottoms out before this happens, you'll need to either shorten the stud or deepen the threads. A bottoming tap will actually allow the stud to go deeper. A bottoming tap looks just like a regular tap except that it is far less tapered down at the tip.

Inserting the studs is best done with a stud remover/installer, ( the modern type that looks kind of like a spark plug socket ) which should be applied to the unthreaded portion of the stud. Failing the aquisition of a stud tool. spin two nuts onto the upper threaded part of the stud, lock them together with a pair of wrenches, and wind the whole thing home. Now, while holding the bottom nut into the direction of installation, undo the upper nut. Avery light application of oil is helpful, though not entirely neccessary. Torque? Just tight enough to make you grunt once. 

By the way, the above post, which says I inserted it a couple of hours ago, was actually made early this morning! Boy, are things jumping around!

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Thanks, MotorBill..

What other cam lubes would be ok? How about a moly lube from Sta-Lube? 

I didn't realize I had to be so finicky with the studs. Is chasing them with a tap always done? Oh, goodie...I get to buy yet another TOOL.

I got my NOS Kent cam today, but my lock nut doesn't go on. I assume all the threads are the same? It looks like it has a slight "ding" on the end of the threads, which may be preventing it from going on...

-p

-p,

Yes, the threads are indeed the same. That "ding" is certainly what's keeping the nut from going on. And,,,,you get to buy yet another tool! Get yourself a set of thread files. These are neat. I have a set (two or three usually comprises a set) that have served me well for many many years. They are square and each have eight different pitches of thread (four on each end). Find the set that EXACTLY matches your thread pitch, respect the thread angle, and carefully work the area until the remaining material matches the rest of the threads. Now that nut will go on sweetly.

Chasing the threads in the block doesn't always have to be done. Just make darned sure the holes are nicely cleaned out. Here's another tricky way to clean them out. Find an old stud or a bolt with a threaded section as long or longer. Now secure it in a vise without touching the threads in such a way that you can take a hacksaw carefully to it end on. Thusly, you can create a flute or two up along the length of the threads, getting shallower as you go. When done, clean the thing scrupulously. I suggest using a grinder mounted wire wheel, then some carburetter spray. Run this newly created tool into each stud hole and the flutes will gather any crud you need to clean out. The bottoming tap will only be needed if you are bottoming out the studs before they seat.

A moly lube isn't a bad choice for the cam, but you can't really add any to the crankcase. The Kent stuff is separately available from a few suppliers, including our host. Whatever you use, make sure it is sold as and rated for camshaft use, and don't forget a liquid additive. 

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Hi again..

Luckily, I found a 3/8 x 16 tap that I didn't know I owned, with which I chased the stud holes. All of my holes are about 7/8" deep, while my stud threads are only about 9/16" of the stud...so they don't come close to the bottom of the hole.

I read the article on "building a no-leak engine" by Les Myer in which he describes aligning the rear bearing cap etc. I'm a little lost as to where exactly he's applying gasket compound. Here's the link:  http://members.tripod.com/PDLJMPR/techin.htm  Any comments on how to deal with the rear seal? Or is crankcase vacuum the most important thing?

As for the cam nut...well.....let's just say that I took care of it.

Thanks,

-p